MURIEL WILKINS: I’m Muriel Wilkins, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Presents Network. I’m a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing.
Today’s guest, who we’ll call “Catherine” to protect her confidentiality, is someone who has risen quickly in her career.
CATHERINE: I was the first one from my family to graduate college. When I was in college, I had several high-profile internships in government. When I got into the real world, I realized I needed to find work that aligned with my skillset. So I joined — it’s a very large firm, and I started out in a role that didn’t exist. Every single one of my roles at my current company has never existed before.
MURIEL WILKINS: Catherine is ambitious and she’s jumped at opportunities when they have come up.
CATHERINE: I joined the office of the global chairman and CEO. In that role, I had tremendous opportunities. I even went to Davos, so I’ve had tremendous experience. When I was looking for the next steps in my career, there were some roadblocks in trying to move myself forward. I was the youngest on the team, I was the most junior on the team. I created an automation solution to do part of my role. And so, I used a bot to move myself forward. When I did so, I thought, “this could be a good way for me to learn more of the business side of the company.” That’s what I did. I’m now a formal leader on the team. I am the leader of the strategy group and on this leadership team, I’m now the only female out of 10 leaders.
MURIEL WILKINS: Catherine has recently come back to work after maternity leave and stepped into a new role as a leader of a strategy group, but she’s already thinking about the best next steps for her career with an eye towards a chief of staff type of role. She’s also used to being the only in a lot of rooms, so I started our coaching meeting by asking her what that feels like.
CATHERINE: I thrive in it. It’s important to me that when I am only, I speak up for myself. One interesting situation that happened with me is when I did come back and I was named the strategy leader, I got added to a call that was for the leadership team and it was at night. It was one of those things where I’m like, “This is a trade-off. Do I take the time away from my family to be on this nightly call that happens once a week?” At first, I downplayed it and my husband and I made accommodations and I was on the call and I was on video and I was an active participant, but it was not sustainable. It was a very difficult time slot and there was no one else on that call who was worried about feeding their family dinner and doing bedtime when the kids are screaming for only mom outside the door. I talked actually to a colleague of mine who was another working mom and she told me, she said, “If you don’t say something now, think about the precedent you’re setting for the next working mother to join your team.” So I wrote my talking points and I got on a call with our team leader and I pitched basically why the call should be at a different date and time. He looked at me and he goes, “That time doesn’t work for my schedule anymore anyways, so I needed that call to move off my schedule.” So it’s been very interesting. As I am finding myself in situations where I’m the only one, I do sit back and make sure that what I’m asking for, even if it’s unique to me, that it will benefit someone else. That’s important to me that I like being different. I also think that’s why I’ve always made my own roles, but this is where I kind of come back to my problem statement of how do I make a future role if I don’t even know what it looks like.
MURIEL WILKINS: Because you speak with such clarity and yet here you are. And so, it seems like up until now — I mean, really throughout your career, you’ve sort of invented or created the roles that you’ve been in. Now, you’re in a situation where you want to map out what your future looks like, but it’s not clear what that future should look like because the role might not necessarily exist. Is that right?
CATHERINE: That’s correct.
MURIEL WILKINS: OK. So tell me what you’ve been reflecting on that, what’s been coming up for you as you think through that question.
CATHERINE: It started because I am ready to move forward and move fast. As I sit in this environment with opportunities that have come to me and even opportunities that I’ve sought out, I am finding roles where I meet some of the qualifications, but I guess, where I’m mainly struggling is that I’m not quite sure if the way that I’m moving forward in my career is the best way. I’m looking forward to this really exciting time in my life where I know that I can do really big things. I feel like it’s a very good time for me to accelerate right now, but one of my questions that I had for you is what’s more important, having kind of a short term, maybe 18-month, two-year goal versus a five-year versus a 15-year plan? How do I kind of map out these next steps when I feel like I’m ready to go now?
MURIEL WILKINS: OK, I’m hearing a couple of things, Catherine. I’m hearing I’m ready to go now and I’m also hearing, but I’m not sure what I’m going to.
CATHERINE: Yeah, that’s right.
MURIEL WILKINS: And so, there lies the misalignment in the formula. Let’s just sort of unpack both ends because I think there’s a question around pace and acceleration, as you put it. Like you’re ready to accelerate now and I’m curious around why now? Not that there’s anything wrong with it, but what is it about the timing? Then there’s a question around accelerate to what or go to what, and what is that what look like? You pick which one would you like to start with.
CATHERINE: I think I can answer the why accelerate now faster.
MURIEL WILKINS: Of course because it’s all about acceleration. Of course, you can do it fast. So why now? Why do you feel this what I call the way I feel? When I accelerate, the day I feel like I need a haircut, I’m like, “It’s got to happen today. It can’t happen tomorrow.” My poor hair stylist, I text her. I’m like, “Could you see me today?” She’s like, “Next week.” I’m like, “No, today. It has to happen today.” That’s what I think about in terms of the energy I’m getting from you like it has to happen now. Why now?
CATHERINE: The first part of this is that I see other young female leaders in the world and I’ve always asked myself, “How does that female CEO get there? What are the defining points in her career that have propelled her forward?” In my role that I’m in now, it’s clicking. I can connect the dots in a way that I’ve never done before. Now that I am hearing for the first time that I am a leader, I am having other working moms come to me for advice and I’ve built this incredible network that has spanned both my global role and the role that I’m in today, where I have the resources. I do go to these very trusted mentors and the one who has guided me the most has actually told me that I need to get to the next level in the next two years. And so, this is a really exciting time, and I tend to work very fast. My turnaround times are very quick. This morning, I got an email asking if we could have an hour call tonight on a communication. And I drafted the communication in 10 minutes and sent it off, and they were like, “This is exactly what we needed to do.” I don’t like to waste time talking about things. I like to do things. Sometimes it gets me into trouble. What I’ve learned is there is this pace of hurry up and wait that I’ve always been following. And the interesting part is the second piece that I don’t really know what I’m waiting for.
MURIEL WILKINS: How will you know that you have figured out what it is that you want to move towards?
CATHERINE: I think that’s my problem. When I look at my role now, I don’t see myself long-term, but where I know I want to go in the company, there need to be several chess pieces that move, but those pieces are out of my control. I don’t know if now is the right time for me to move from my company to another company. I’m not really sure if I need to fulfill what has been my dream in this company where I have a much higher profile role. I want to be a chief of staff, I want to be an executive, and I have a very great example of a woman who I respect tremendously, who went from the level that I am now. Within the past eight years, she has moved from director and chief of staff to now she is on a board of a very prominent company. I’ve seen it happen around me. I just don’t really know what that looks like for myself.
MURIEL WILKINS: Let’s pause here to reflect on the dual problem that Catherine is facing — that many people face. She wants to figure out how to get to that next level, but she hasn’t really figured out what exactly that next level even is. When caught in this type of situation, it’s often easy to know what you don’t want in that next role. It’s just as important, if not more so, to know what you do want. But that can be hard for some to articulate. Let’s jump back in as I ask Catherine to lean in to the what do I want question.
So when you think about this chief of staff / executive role — and by the way, are you using those two terms interchangeably because there’s chief of staff and then there’s executive, and chief of staff is an executive? Or are there other executive type roles that you’re interested in?
CATHERINE: I almost think about it as a progression. So two different roles, starting out with chief of staff to moving into the executive.
MURIEL WILKINS: Got it. Ultimately, you see yourself as being in a very senior executive role.
CATHERINE: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: At the C-suite?
CATHERINE: I think so.
MURIEL WILKINS: You think so or you know so?
CATHERINE: I know so.
MURIEL WILKINS: You know so. I’m not trying to pressure you, I’m just saying you tend to speak with a lot of clarity. When we start putting a stake in the ground, it doesn’t mean that we’re like, “Oh no, what if I say that and it doesn’t happen?” But they also do happen, so you do need to name it. I do think you have clarity — your goal is to be a C-level executive at some point in your career.
CATHERINE: I mean, that sounds good hearing it for the first time. I think I’ve never said those words before, but that is where I want to be.
MURIEL WILKINS: What has kept you from saying those words?
CATHERINE: I think from not being around that world. I’ve always had this seat at the table and I’ve learned so many fabulous lessons from these leaders, but I think I’ve always seen the sausage getting made. It’s interesting for this leadership meeting that I recently attended, it was the first time that, post pandemic, I was able to see everyone and to meet a lot of people that I hadn’t before and here I am going into this meeting at a leader level. In the past, I would’ve been invited to that as a support person. I told my husband, “I am so worried.” This is how funny it is. I’m not worried about the pre-reads because the pre-reads are done, my presentation for the meeting is ready to go. I feel like I’m prepped. I have the power outfit to walk into that room, but who ordered lunch? I said, “I am not going to ask about lunch,” because by asking about it, then it might become my responsibility. The one thing that has always been in the back of my mind is that I went from the person who had to get the lunch. Making this kind of fundamental mindset shift from what are all the little details to let’s zoom out and really focus on the piece that I’m in the room for, which is the strategy and stakeholder management piece, and also, the importance of being in the room and making those connections. I now feel like I’m part of the conversation and I think that’s been my main hang up and thinking about the fact that I want to be a chief of staff and that I want to be a C-suite executive. I’m just now starting to see myself in those shoes.
MURIEL WILKINS: You’re seeing it. It hasn’t fully become a reality yet, and if I may, I’m going to mirror back what I think I’m sensing from you. I’m sensing that you fear that if you don’t make that executive role a reality soon, that you’ll be stuck in the who’s ordering the lunch role.
CATHERINE: You are exactly right.
MURIEL WILKINS: Where does that story come from?
CATHERINE: I’ve had leaders on both sides of things. I’ve had leaders who have said, “You are fantastic. We need to get you more recognition.” And that’s the role that I’m in right now. But in the past, I have been in roles where it’s you do all the work and I’m going to steal the credit for it. There have also been situations where I have voiced an unpopular opinion that has been very controversial. The responses that I’ve gotten have made me kind of question my judgment at some situations. But it’s times like these where I’m in this role where all of those difficult conversations where people were saying, “You’re not ready for promotion,” or, “We don’t have the head count,” or “You didn’t spend 10 years in a traditional role.” I did question, maybe I am moving too quickly or too differently, but I’m now being rewarded for that because it’s the way that I think differently, it’s the way that I bring this executive presence that I’ve learned from being the most junior, the youngest in the room, to now that I’m the youngest, most junior at the table, I can see both sides of it.
MURIEL WILKINS: I mean, look, here’s the thing. You’ve named what it is that you want in terms of, at some point in your career being a C-suite level executive. You have also named sort of the “fear that lingers” that you’re concerned about what might hold you back. It’s sort of staying in the dual role in the, for lack of better words, kind of the grunt role where you started. There’s a saying sometimes, don’t forget where you came from and you want that to be a part of you, but you also don’t want to stay stuck there either, but there is some goodness that came out of it, so how do you carry that forward. You use the term your ability to be able to, you want to be able to zoom out and not stay stuck in the zooming in. What I will tell you is that effective leaders are able to do both. They’re able to zoom out and they’re able to zoom in. They’re able to discern when one is right versus the other. And so, right now, you’re in a position of learning more how to zoom out because you’re being exposed to more. You have clarity around what you want. There’s this, I’m still really curious about the pace at which you get it because that’ll help determine what the path is that you take in terms of how fast you want to make it happen. That said, I think you’re focusing a lot on what is the right path. It’s almost like you’ve decided this is the town that I want to go to on my road trip. Now, you’re trying to figure out what is the… You’re using ways and you’re like, “What is the route with the least amount of traffic that’s going to directly get me there?” You don’t really pay attention like me as to whether it’s going to make you make a left turn on the busy street, which is impossible. You’re sort of looking at what’s the most linear direct way to get there. What you’re not paying attention to or what I’m not hearing you say is what are you picking up along the way.
CATHERINE: I do see exactly what you’re saying. I am a bit of a perfectionist, where I see the place that I need to get to and I just get there. My other problem statement was that I want to make sure that I’m getting the right experiences out of the role that I’m in now to set me up for that chief of staff and also the C-suite executive role. I can make this role that I’m in my own. I want to make sure that I’m learning exactly what I need to get to the next step.
MURIEL WILKINS: And so, I think that question will be more helpful to you than how fast should I be moving? Should it be here? Should it be elsewhere? What’s the most accelerated path there? Not to say that we can’t pay attention to those things, but I think in order to be able to answer those questions around how fast and where, there’s a first level question, a first level order question, which is what muscles do you need to build to best position you to be able to get to that next step that you’ve identified in terms of being a global chief of staff and then ultimately to get into a C-suite level position. And so, based on the work that you’ve done and the mentors that you’ve had and the research that you’ve done at this point, what are the areas that you feel like you have strengths in that you’d be able to contribute as a chief of staff role, and then there are gaps that you think you’d need to start demonstrating or need to build, have some at-bats in so that you can be better positioned?
CATHERINE: The first thing that comes to mind is I can have a very comfortable conversation with any leader at my firm. I have very good executive presence and I feel comfortable speaking at a leadership level. I don’t have a lot of experience with the junior ranks at our firm. I kind of came in at the mid-level and only worked with the most senior. I’m just now in my role, starting to get exposure to the straight out of college, very beginner in their career, and I really don’t know how to speak to them. Even though I’m very similar in age, I kind of equated back to when I was growing up, I was much more comfortable at a dinner conversation than I was at a kid’s birthday party. I’ve been in the room with executives for so long. I know exactly what to say and I don’t have much experience with the staff part.
MURIEL WILKINS: Here’s the risk in all this. I’m just going to be honest with you. This comes down to a choice of path that you want to take. The path of a chief of staff is you could really become a very… and this is not in all organizations, but definitely possible in some, you could become a very senior individual contributor. It sounds like that’s actually the path that you’ve been on. You’ve risen through the ranks at an accelerated rate, learning how to manage up and learning how to manage stakeholders. It sounds like it’s been a lot of external stakeholders, managing relationship. What you haven’t picked up as of yet, it sounds like, is learning how to manage others. To be able to do the things that you’re actually concerned, you’re going to be the one stuck doing them, i.e. ordering the lunch.
CATHERINE: Exactly.
MURIEL WILKINS: Do you need those skills of managing others? It depends. If you’re going to be a very senior individual contributor, you might not. There is a possibility around that track, not everywhere, but certainly somewhere. But if you want to be in the C-suite, which basically means you’re scaling management others in a much broader way, in a much bigger and significant way, then you would want to have some experience of not only learning how to manage others, but then learning how to manage the managers who manage others. And so, it sounds like up until now, you haven’t had that opportunity.
CATHERINE: That’s right.
MURIEL WILKINS: This brings us back to this notion of, is it really a question of how fast, or is it a question of what are the experiences that you need to get that are going to support you in that role. If you want to be a C-suite level leader, sounds like what is going to best position you, you already have the executive presence down, you already have being able to operate with senior level people down, the part that you don’t have is how do you manage others so that they can do the work in whatever function it is that you’re going to be leading and running.
CATHERINE: Absolutely. Where I struggle with my initial interactions with managing others has been, I never want to put the staff that I’m working with in the same place where they feel like I did. Some of my hardest lessons that I learned were in those situations. You’ve now opened my mind to another door. I kind of shared with you for the first time that I not only want to be a chief of staff, but I also want to be an executive at the C-suite level, but now I see that there’s also both of those pass independently. It’s interesting to me, because if I focus on the experience that I can get now, which is working with others, kind of managing others, it gets back to that individual contributor level because I need to take myself out of that equation.
MURIEL WILKINS: Talk to me a little bit about that. What do you mean take yourself out of the equation?
CATHERINE: When I was in previous roles, I came into situations where I would do all of the work, but I wasn’t there for the presentation. What I’m weary of is that when I start managing others, I don’t want to take the credit for their work.
MURIEL WILKINS: Gotcha.
CATHERINE: I’m still in that mindset of I want to uplift others. I want to make sure that team members are getting the recognition that they need. I also am not the kind of person who is going to be threatened by someone else doing an excellent job.
MURIEL WILKINS: I think what you are articulating here is more what your management philosophy will be rather than actual management skills, you’re guiding principles in terms of how you decide to treat the people that are on your team and your team members and others. That’s important. It is important. Similarly to how we looked into what do you see for your future, and I said, “Oh, you shifted from articulating what you don’t want to articulating what you want.” What I would encourage you to do when you start thinking about what your management philosophy is or your management approaches or style, don’t focus so much on what you don’t want it to be. Focus more on what you want it to be. It’s no different than what it sounds like an excellent job you’ve done in managing up. It’s been very intentional around how you want or have wanted those senior level people to experience you. Obviously, it’s paid off. It’s the same in managing others. How do you want them to experience you? With that, then you can determine, okay, well then, when do I give credit? What’s the tone do I use? What are the types of things that I ask for or don’t ask for? That’s one piece of it. The other bucket that I think you need to pay attention to in terms of really building your management chops is really just, I’m just going to be really crude here, it’s just really good management hygiene. What kind of systems do you set up? How do you hire people? How do you fire people? How do you give them feedback? How do you develop them so that they can reach circles? All of the, as you called it, the sausage making behind management, and it’s a brick-by-brick endeavor. One of the biggest pitfalls that people run into when they get accelerated very quickly through their career pipeline is that they are phenomenal star performers. That doesn’t mean that they are excellent phenomenal managers. Just because you get promoted because you’re a great star performer at an individual level doesn’t mean that you’re going to succeed as a manager. And so, now, the question becomes, is it possible for you to build that management muscle in the role that you’re in given the flexibility that you have to create it? Is it possible in your organization or do you have to go somewhere else where the conditions are riper for you to be able and the opportunities are there for you to build that muscle? Where can you build it most quickly since that speed is of importance to you? I’ll turn that back over to you as you look at the landscape, what seems possible?
CATHERINE: It’s a very timely conversation because I actually just pitched my leader the team that I need to build out. I do think this is a very important time for me to kind of start small, but to your point, I think I need to assess how far I can take that experience. There are others on the team who are managing a lot more people and I am learning a lot just from observing them. And so, I wonder if I take this hybrid approach where I utilize the skills of becoming a manager myself, but also to learn from others who are managers, but it gets back to what you were saying about the management philosophy and the management hygiene. Mine is very different from everyone else’s on my team. I think this could be a unique opportunity for me to continue to show how being different and thinking in a different way could help the team benefit.
MURIEL WILKINS: You kind of want to think about it as you’re building the house and then you want to decorate the house. The building the house is what we talked about just having those management systems. I mean, you can look at it through people that you work with. You can read a ton of books on just management systems, watch videos go to an executive education class, take training. All those things will teach you kind of the systems to put in place. That’s the building the foundation of the house. Then it’s how do I overlay those systems with my, as we called it, my philosophy, my approach, which by the way, happens to be different than what I see in terms of my colleagues and how they manage. That’s more the decorating the house. What’s the energy that I give the house? What does it feel like? What does it smell like? What does it look like? Yeah, you’re going to define that for yourself and you’re going to define it by contrast, by looking at some people and saying, “That’s not the way I want to do it,” so you learn how to define that by contrast. You’ll also learn it by mirroring or modeling what you see in others. If you’re not finding those others in your company, then leverage one of the skills that you have, which is to create relationships and go out there and find mentors and network with people until you identify a few people who you’re like, “I like their management approach. Let me talk to them. How do they do it? How do they treat their people?”
CATHERINE: I think that is exactly what I need to do for my next step. My follow up question would be what are some of the other areas where I might need to use this time and this role to get exactly what I need to propel me. To your point, I’m ready to move fast and maybe there is this opportunity for me to take these experiences that I need and continue to move at the same pace, or maybe it is I’m going to find them challenging or need to invest more time and to slow down a little bit depending on what opportunities are in place. And so, what else do I need to really focus on?
MURIEL WILKINS: This is an important turning point in the conversation because we’ve started breaking down exactly what she’s looking for, then breaking those into even smaller parts. In order to get where she wants to go and at the pace that she wants, there should be a plan in place. And so, I dug deep with her on the management piece, identifying exactly what skills she has, which she needs to develop and maybe which she doesn’t want to develop depending on what kind of role she really wants. The value here is in the specifics. Let’s wrap up the conversation now with some of the concrete things Catherine can do next. I mean, when you think about folks who make it to very senior level, there’s usually four components. Two that I would consider price of admission. The first is just technical skills, that you have an area of expertise in something. If you’re the CFO, it’s in finance. If you’re the chief marketing officer, then it’s marketing. There’s that. The second, which is also price of admission is the functional skill. The technical skill is the subject matter itself. The functional skill is now, how do I run a function around that skill that’s going to provide and add value to the company. Doesn’t mean that I’m doing it, but I understand how this function runs. Those two things are price of admission. I would say you have to start asking yourself, what’s my technical expertise, if any, and you don’t have to have a true, true, but is there something that I’m known for in terms of what I can contribute from a subject matter standpoint, and then what is the function or functions that I’m either interested in or where I think I can add value or function that I would like to lead at some point? Then the third and the fourth are what I see as the differentiating factors. They are, number one, are you differentiated as a leader? Do you know how to lead? Are you able to articulate a vision and are you able to take stakeholders from point A to point B towards the vision and all the things that come up under leadership skills? And so, it might behoove you to, at some point, kind of go through some type of leadership assessment, so that you can take inventory where others can evaluate you on where they see you relative to each of those competencies and that might give you a better sense of what your strengths are and then where some of the gaps might be that you need to close. There’s the leadership skills and then the other differentiator is just having really strong business acumen, understanding business fundamentals. Just because, let’s say, you said, “Hey, yes, I want to be at the C-suite level. I want to be the chief marketing officer,” does not mean you should not know what the business fundamentals of that company are.
CATHERINE: Absolutely.
MURIEL WILKINS: I laid out those buckets. I don’t have enough of a sense of you in terms of where your skills are or where they are not to tell you, “Oh, for you specifically, Catherine, here are the gaps that you need to close,” but it lays out a framework where you ought to take some stock and take some inventory, again, by getting feedback and you’ll be better able to articulate what are the areas that you have potential in, but that you need to have more experience in so that you can best position yourself in terms of readiness for a senior level role.
CATHERINE: I actually did an assessment right before I became named leader and the assessment found that the only piece of feedback that I received to work on was that I needed to be better at giving feedback to staff. I think it connects back to our conversation about the experience that I really need is going to be managing a team.
MURIEL WILKINS: And so, that points it to the whole managing team. I’m just going to take it a step further in that in your current role, the feedback you’re getting is around providing feedback to your team, which is one managerial component. If you think about then operating at the C-suite level, you’re then managing at scale. And so, what I’m saying to you is see if you can get the experiences that will start teaching you how to manage at scale, because that is very different than having to give feedback to one individual team member or to work with a small team. It’s that tenfold, twentyfold, thirtyfold. I know you have kids, it’s like going from one to two to three to four kids, and you’re like, “Oh my goodness. This is different.”
CATHERINE: That makes sense because there are, I think, opportunities for me to do both in my current roles.
MURIEL WILKINS: When you think about everything we’ve talked about, what you want to do, you have choices around how you get there, but you’ve identified at the very least for now, you’ve identified one area that there seems to be a gap that would help position you better for what you want to do in the future. We still haven’t answered the how fast do you need to move. It’s up to you how fast as long as the opportunities are there. We’ve talked about do you need to have a 5-year plan, a 10-year plan, a 15-year plan, a 20-year plan?. I don’t know, maybe I took the easy way out as a coach and I said it’s up to you. With all that said, we talked about a lot, what are you left with or where are you now compared to where you were when we started this conversation?
CATHERINE: Our conversation has confirmed to me that I am on the right path, that I am thinking about the right experiences that I need being positioned on a team and that maybe things coming easily to me is not an indication that I need to move faster, it’s that I need to diversify. I also think with the absence of a clear role that doesn’t really exist yet, I’m thinking about two very traditional roles, a chief of staff role in a C-suite role. Am I bending myself for those roles or are those roles going to be bending closer to me?
MURIEL WILKINS: What do you think?
CATHERINE: I’m not really sure.
MURIEL WILKINS: And so, earlier in the conversation, you told me you have a certain way of approaching things when you’re not sure. What happens to them on your to-do list?
CATHERINE: They get pushed off.
MURIEL WILKINS: Until when?
CATHERINE: Until I get more clarity on them and then all of a sudden, I click.
MURIEL WILKINS: How do you apply that here?
CATHERINE: I think that’s a fair point. I think I need to focus on these experiences, forget this how quickly, kind of what the future state is and make sure that I’m working every day towards this ultimate goal. It doesn’t matter if I become chief of staff in 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, because it might not actually be a chief of staff role.
MURIEL WILKINS: I mean, look, here’s the thing. When you came out of college, did you think you were going to go to Davos before you turned 30?
CATHERINE: No.
MURIEL WILKINS: Exactly. By no means am I saying, “Hey, forget the goals. Don’t have goals.” All I’m suggesting and I don’t even know if I’m suggesting, I’m actually playing back what I think I hear you saying is, “Maybe I don’t need to be so crystal clear because I have faith and confidence that the right opportunity will come up for me. The one that’s right. Instead, let me focus my energy and my time on building these muscles so that whatever opportunity comes up, I will be ready for. I have a general idea of what it looks like. I know I want to lead. I know I want to lead big. I’m not a small player. I want to be a big player. I am ambitious. I don’t quite know what it looks like, so I’m going to let that sit and marinate for a little bit until the fog gets lifted. But in the meantime, I’m going to make sure that I’m dressed for the part and conditioned for the part, whatever way that part ends up looking like.”
CATHERINE: That is exactly what I need to do. Man, you’re good.
MURIEL WILKINS: No, you’re good. You’re good. That’s great. What’s one thing you’re going to do coming out of this conversation?
CATHERINE: I’m going to build a team and I’m going to start managing people and navigating that whole world. I’m going to keep up my network and make sure that the skills and the muscles that I’m flexing continue to make sense. I think if there’s a point where the muscles that I’m flexing don’t make sense to either me or those in my network who are positioned closer to where I want to be, that’s when it’s time for me to move on.
MURIEL WILKINS: Absolutely. That’s great. All right. Listen, I’m excited. I can’t wait to hear where you end up. I have a feeling it’s going to be someplace big and I’m really looking forward to seeing where that is.
CATHERINE: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. I’m very excited. I think that’s why when I was on these walks with my newborn baby thinking about where I’m going to go next to my career, for me, it wasn’t until someone said to me, “You are a leader,” that I was like, “Oh, I am a leader.” It’s that inflection point. I appreciate this time with you because I never knew what changed in these leaders’ lives and how they really moved forward. I’ve seen people who have gone super fast and it was exactly where they needed to be. Then I’ve seen people who have gone super fast and then things are abruptly stopped. And so, I think if I transition from this mindset of timing and goals, while that is all the rage these days, and really focus on the experiences and the feelings, that I’m going to be able to get there probably faster than I could have if I was doing it the other way.
MURIEL WILKINS: Terrific. Thank you.
CATHERINE: Thank you.
MURIEL WILKINS: At the start of our coaching meeting, Catherine, like a lot of ambitious high performers, wanted to know the exact steps to take to get to the next level, but just focusing on a plan is not all that she needs. Instead, it’s about readying herself for the next role by building the skills that she’s going to need while simultaneously positioning herself so that she’s open to the opportunities when they arise. All of that takes some planning for sure, but it also takes some flexibility and openness to what sometimes doesn’t go exactly according to plan and yet might be the biggest opportunity in her hand. That’s it for this episode. Next time on Coaching Real Leaders.
SPEAKER 3:
I got pulled back into the function to kind of really help kick over the organization again actually, because in terms of my history, I’ve been with this organization for 20 plus years. Somewhere along the line, I really became, how do I say, a very, very specialized person in the ecosystem of what this function supports.
MURIEL WILKINS: Thanks to my producer Mary Dooe, sound editor Nick Crnko, music composer Brian Campbell, my assistant Emily Sofa, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. If you’d like to dive deeper into these coaching sessions, join me and the rest of the Coaching Real Leaders community for live episode discussions at coachingrealleaderscommunity.com. If you’re dealing with a leadership challenge of your own, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn, on Twitter @MurielMWilkins or on Instagram @CoachMurielWilkins. Of course, if you love the show and learn from it, pay it forward. Share it with your friends. Subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcast. From HBR Presents, I’m Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.
How Do I Fast-Track My Career? - HBR.org Daily
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